Just introducing myself

Hi all. I joined TCOC in recent days. I had been riding bikes as my alternative transport (/pleasure) and had downsized from 1000cc to 650cc a year ago. The renewal for tax & insurance came up and I noticed I had only done 150 miles on it in the whole year. And so.....I had obviously lost interest.

So, I had never even sat in a Spitfire nor driven one, but always admired them - they so very beautiful. So I bought one from one of the admins of a UK club, on the basis that it'd be reasonable. And it appears to be. Last taxed in 2012, it had been stored and was mildly troublesome for the seller to get running correctly (bad petrol, carbs, a hole discovered in the water pump.....he kindly offered to return the money and give me first refusal when it was sorted, but I said no need.....it was all small things that you'd expect and they didn't concern me.) Sounds like I got a bargain as many (UK) members on Facebook were giving out to him for letting it go too cheaply. I genuinely dunno.

Anyway, the car is a hoot to drive! And it sounds GORGEOUS, not too loud, but a nice deep resonance, almost identical to what my 650 V-twin bike sounded like :-) It starts grand, a bit grumpy when cold (but sure so am I!), and then becomes very predictable and is easy to live with. It coped with repeated congestion in the UK in hot weather just fine. Kept my eye on the temp guage all the time though!

Assumed the front wheels just needed balancing (tyres look excellent) because the whole thing nearlt went into orbit at around 50mph with violent shaking on the steering wheel and elsewhere......only to discover from the garage that the tyres are 21 years old, and not even circular (presumably from sitting stationary over the years). So - new tyres. But.......spoke wheels do look lovely......best place to buy?

Looking into it online it looks like there's been a myriad of wheel and tyre sizes over the years.

Great to be part of your club. Thank you Stephen for your warm welcome. Sadly Sunday mornings are bad for me as I'm a church organist/musician and have duties every Sunday. Google St. Saviour's Church, Arklow - it's just gorgeous.....originally intended to be a cathedral. (Well worth a visit - I have keys if anyone interested.) Still, I'll catch you all at some other social gathering, promise.

Oh yes - this is what I do: www.pipeorgansirl.com  A little off the beaten track.

I'd be delighted if one of you more mechanical minded people would look over the car for me and advise on what would be the best way forward. There would of course be a couple of bottles of whatever coming your way as a thank you :-) Happy to bring the car to you whenever best suits you.

I was assuming electronic ignition might be a no-brainer, but I see in the UK opinions are divided about it.

And there's a few noises and rattles from it, plus it drips a bit of oil......some guidance with all this would be appreciated.

Haynes manual - is it good or is there something better out there?

Cheers, Stephen. And enjoy the weather :-)

E10 is an issue for us all, copied below from another group bit of a scary read but this all happens over time - just have a good check of all the fuel lines and repalce anything that looks worn, soft or cracked with new Ethanol approved ones and use an additive.

Couple of important details about Ethanol;

- It’s Hydroscopic (absorbs water)

- It’s a solvent (breaks down varnish and old fuel residues)

- It’s an aggressive solvent (strips oils out of rubber and plastics)

- It’s a molecule of Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen that can over time corrode (by drawing off other atoms) lead, zinc, tin and because of that, brass, solder and many cast aluminium alloys

- It’s a less energy dense but higher octane fuel than petrol.

So, using it in classic cars.

First off, corrosion of metal fuel tanks and fuel lines is a problem as moisture will be absorbed into the fuel and released as condensation when stored.

It will attack rubber hoses, diaphragms, O’rings, gaskets and any other material not specifically made to cope with it.

It will attack soldered brass floats in carburettors and also the die cast aluminium of many carburettors because they contain zinc.

You need to tune your engine for it to minimise issues.

Tuning.

- Because it is a fuel with lower energy density that petrol, you need more of it in there. It is actually higher octane than petrol but you need to run richer than petrol in order to maintain the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1

- The benefit here is the cooling effect on the air charge by evaporation of the correct fuel mixture, means you can run more ignition timing before you get detonation (pinging)

- The downside of not tuning to suit is heat, lots of it. The lean mixture will cause excessive exhaust gas temperatures from detonation which can reach 800 – 900 degrees under load and cause microscopic welds to form on valve seats. These welds tear small metal fragments out of the valve seat which, stuck to the valve, become hardened in the exhaust heat and then work like an abrasive on the valve seat, referred to as exhaust valve regression, it will literally grind out your valve seats.

Fuel Additives.

Are a short term help but not a long term answer. Octane doesn’t need boosting at all, fuel mixture does, but the additive help work around this by increasing energy density of the fuel. A lot of it is snake oil though, so beware.

Lead was added to fuel as it’s a great lubricant at high temperature and helps extend the life of valve seats. However, if your engine can have valve seat inserts machined in, this isn’t a problem anymore.

Many of the additives also work to prevent water formation in the fuel tank.

So the best approach to E10 and whatever comes next isn’t additives, it’s to make permanent changes to suit the fuel better.

Replace fuel lines and other components that contain rubber parts.

Replace steel fuel lines

Clean out and use a fuel tank liner with steel fuel tanks

Replace soldered brass fuel floats

Replace items like fuel pumps that aren’t compatible

Have your engine properly tuned to achieve correct air/fuel ratio

Get yourself a spare carburettor for when the corrosion causes damage beyond use

And for the ultimate long term fix.

Have your cylinder head built with new valves and hardened exhaust valve inserts.
One last thing. Any fuel with Ethanol E5, E10, etc, doesn't last well and goes stale in just a matter of weeks. If you want to store your car over winter, storing it full help minimise rust formation in the fuel tank. But, when you get it out of storage, drain the fuel system completely, toss it out and fill up fresh.

Replies

Ken Nolan November 29, 2023 at 9:12pm

Hi Stephen

welcome title club, there is allot of information and experience in the club so you can post photos and descriptions of work you need advice on.

Ken Nolan
Simon Kelly November 27, 2023 at 7:52pm

Hi Stephen,

Just wondering how you got on with your new Mk3 Spitfire? There are a few of us with MK3's in the club so plenty of advice available. The E10 issue can be resolved as per earlier posts- I changed all the petrol rubber pipes with Ethylene resistant ones and that seems to be working well. Hope to see you are one of our events- The Christmas party is on in Curracloe this Saturday and we are meeting up at Jack Whytes pub 3 pm en route.
Stephen Grant June 5, 2023 at 11:29pm

E10 is an issue for us all, copied below from another group bit of a scary read but this all happens over time - just have a good check of all the fuel lines and repalce anything that looks worn, soft or cracked with new Ethanol approved ones and use an additive.

Couple of important details about Ethanol;

- It’s Hydroscopic (absorbs water)

- It’s a solvent (breaks down varnish and old fuel residues)

- It’s an aggressive solvent (strips oils out of rubber and plastics)

- It’s a molecule of Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen that can over time corrode (by drawing off other atoms) lead, zinc, tin and because of that, brass, solder and many cast aluminium alloys

- It’s a less energy dense but higher octane fuel than petrol.

So, using it in classic cars.

First off, corrosion of metal fuel tanks and fuel lines is a problem as moisture will be absorbed into the fuel and released as condensation when stored.

It will attack rubber hoses, diaphragms, O’rings, gaskets and any other material not specifically made to cope with it.

It will attack soldered brass floats in carburettors and also the die cast aluminium of many carburettors because they contain zinc.

You need to tune your engine for it to minimise issues.

Tuning.

- Because it is a fuel with lower energy density that petrol, you need more of it in there. It is actually higher octane than petrol but you need to run richer than petrol in order to maintain the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1

- The benefit here is the cooling effect on the air charge by evaporation of the correct fuel mixture, means you can run more ignition timing before you get detonation (pinging)

- The downside of not tuning to suit is heat, lots of it. The lean mixture will cause excessive exhaust gas temperatures from detonation which can reach 800 – 900 degrees under load and cause microscopic welds to form on valve seats. These welds tear small metal fragments out of the valve seat which, stuck to the valve, become hardened in the exhaust heat and then work like an abrasive on the valve seat, referred to as exhaust valve regression, it will literally grind out your valve seats.

Fuel Additives.

Are a short term help but not a long term answer. Octane doesn’t need boosting at all, fuel mixture does, but the additive help work around this by increasing energy density of the fuel. A lot of it is snake oil though, so beware.

Lead was added to fuel as it’s a great lubricant at high temperature and helps extend the life of valve seats. However, if your engine can have valve seat inserts machined in, this isn’t a problem anymore.

Many of the additives also work to prevent water formation in the fuel tank.

So the best approach to E10 and whatever comes next isn’t additives, it’s to make permanent changes to suit the fuel better.

Replace fuel lines and other components that contain rubber parts.

Replace steel fuel lines

Clean out and use a fuel tank liner with steel fuel tanks

Replace soldered brass fuel floats

Replace items like fuel pumps that aren’t compatible

Have your engine properly tuned to achieve correct air/fuel ratio

Get yourself a spare carburettor for when the corrosion causes damage beyond use

And for the ultimate long term fix.

Have your cylinder head built with new valves and hardened exhaust valve inserts.
One last thing. Any fuel with Ethanol E5, E10, etc, doesn't last well and goes stale in just a matter of weeks. If you want to store your car over winter, storing it full help minimise rust formation in the fuel tank. But, when you get it out of storage, drain the fuel system completely, toss it out and fill up fresh.
Stephen Grant June 5, 2023 at 11:19pm

Hi Stephen, I'm in Wicklow Town so very close to Arklow, let me know if you're in the vacinity.
So they all leak oil to some degree, it's a 'feature' if it's a drop then not to worry but if it's excessive then it may need attention - give it a good clean when its cold and get rid of any excess then bring it for a spin and see where it's leaking (sump gasket, rocker cover, rear seal.......)
As Niall says get the tyres sorted Brady's in Arklow is good they know classic cars well. Check for play in the bearings too but likely it's just balancing required. Bearings will always have some slack unlike modern cars so don't over tighten.
If it's running fine on points I'd leave it as is for now, just make sure you carry a sapre set + condenser + dizzy cap and rotor - at least if they fail you can get it going again at the side of the road. Noises and rattles are par for the course but clanging and banging on accerlaration or deceleration may be signs of wear and tear in UJs or diff.
Haynes manual is a good investment!
- Stephen Adams > Stephen Grant June 8, 2023 at 3:22pm
  
  Thanks Stephen. I'm in Arklow once weekly (Sundays), sometimes twice. Could meet for a wee while any Sunday after church. That'd be about lunch hour..... my details are below, as sent to Niall. Cheers, S.
- Stephen Adams > Stephen Grant June 6, 2023 at 7:10pm
  
  Stephen and Niall. Apologies. The order in which information is displayed here on the website confuses me. It's the same with emails as they appear on a mob phone, where a thread kinda gets extended......and the reader isn't made clearly aware that there's a new message.....more an answer to something said days before....and so the date gets allocated to that, and consequently visually too.
  
  It gets mucky for me because I run 4 different, but associated businesses. I could easily get 40 messages in one single day, via multiple formats.
  
  No wonder I fancy a quiet (or noisy) spin in a Spitfire here and there :-)
  
  Or perhaps the more rational explanation is that I'm thick! :-)
  
  I'm actually not too bad - rebuilt many an engine when I was younger - the most challenging perhaps the Triumph Trident 750 (bike), a triple, unusual. (Only 3 spring to mind vividly.....the others being the Kawasaki 500cc (bike) and the Diahatsu Charade.....cant remember what it was called....but generally accepted as a success at the time.)
  
  And speaking of a completely different kind of thread, the Trident happily sported an aluminium block. YAY! Until head bolts start to shear one by one owing to previous owners who just didn't understand patience. (I did them carefully, in the correct order, to the correct torque (but not first time round) using my prized Britool torque wrench, gradually achieving an initial conclusion after 5 or 6 runs around the bolts....gently, gently, catch the monkey! as it were. Then ride the bike.....and do it all again a week later. Incl. readjustment of tappet clearances owing to pushrod engine.....(yawn!). Head gaskets were thick copper because the originals blew so easily........and so this was Trident ownership.
  
  Anyway, the issue was eventually solved by a smart guy in the UK. His name evades me right now. (This was 35 years ago......think it was Phil Pick.....he came up with a system of re-boring that very much sorted some factory misalignment stuff with the pistons/bore)
  
  I hope to Goodness Spitfires are a little kinder on the patience front! :-)
  
  And alas I missed your message. New tyres already ordered via Wesley in Tullow. But he's highly experienced too....and a good friend.
  
  Haynes manual also ordered.
  
  E5, E10 petrol, stale within weeks? Oooo :-/// Ummm.....
  
  Wynn's market a product called E10 Protectant. Snake oil or not? I genuinely dunno.
  
  Stephen/Niall - I'm in Arklow weekly, sometimes twice or more, but always Sunday mornings. You have my personal details (my website). Gimme a shout!! And that applies for one and all in the club. TALK TO ME :-) Privately, or via here, doesn't matter.
  
  And for any club members who might be near Tullow, Co. Carlow.....if you have any issues......a breakdown (car or otherwise!).....087 6435374 :-)
  
  Anyway, see y'all soon PG :-) S.
- Niall Callery > Stephen Adams June 7, 2023 at 6:47am
  
  Hi Stephen I must be thicker than you as I can't find your Email and when I click on you highlighted web address it brings me back to this Thread and I can neither find the FB Page that your Car was advertised on so cannot see anymore Pics
  
  Im about 45/60mins away from you depending if it's Arklow or Carlow as im in Tallaght beside the N81,I'm away for a week but happy to have a look at the Car when I return,Cheers.
- Stephen Adams > Niall Callery June 8, 2023 at 3:19pm
  
  Oh - that'd be great! My details - 087 6435374 - email pipeorgans.ireland@gmail.com - website pipeorgansirl.com Cheers, S.
Niall Callery June 2, 2023 at 3:34pm

Hi Stephen what Spitfire have you is it an earlier Roundtail type or the Mk4 1300/1500?
- Stephen Adams > Niall Callery June 2, 2023 at 4:16pm
  
  Hiya Niall. Just put the ad for the car there. All I know is it's 1970, Mk 3, first registered in 1971. 4-speed gearbox. I had thought it was 1500cc, but it now appears to be 1300. I don't mind.....it still goes well. Tyres are certainly not new.....but to be fair to the seller, they look great. Alas they're still not round! I quietly prefer round tyres :-)

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